Thoughts on Stained Glass, etc.

[jianantonic]

Talking with Darlene at work this morning, I was describing the stained glass at the UCC church. She said, "I really think that beautiful stained glass makes a sanctuary holy."
Now, I understand that she most likely doesn't think that's the only thing that makes a church sanctuary holy, but it ignited a nasty reaction inside me. I didn't say much to her, but made a mental note to revisit the conversation in my LJ tonight.
I like stained glass. I think it's beautiful art. I think it really makes a church look nice. But is that the point? When Darlene said what she said, I was thinking to myself, "how holy?" For instance, which is more Christian: serving others or having fancy art in your sactuary? I know I'll probably never live up to my own ideals of Christian behavior, but, when has a church (or an individual) fulfilled enough of its Christian duties (maybe duties is the wrong word?) that the next thing on the list of Christian things to do is to put expensive, elaborate windows in a church? Not that I'm in favor of religious riots but I really side with Karlstadt here (look up iconoclasym, ~1528CE). Art honoring the Christian Way is great, but it should not be worshipped. Art as a worship aide is the grey area. Do I think hymns are bad? Eh. Not really, BUT, I do think it's important that people know the meaning of the hymn instead of just memorizing the words. Basically, I think if you're going to do the church thing (and I feel like a lot of religious growth would be better nurtured elsewhere), it is important that you know why you're there. People shouldn't go to church to sing hymns or recite prayers (this is why I despise liturgy). They should be inspired on their own, without having to follow a program to know when to pray, sing, or partake in a sacrament (communion, baptism, etc...), and when it's no longer Sunday, they should be just as Christian as they were in church.

To go off on another tangent, this is why I'm not going to get baptized, even though I want to be a member of the Church of the Brethren. I think too much focus is put on ceremony and not enough on what that ceremony is supposed to represent. Personally, I think God would rather tend to war and destruction than bother over how long or deeply your head or body is submerged during baptism, or the specific translation of the Bible read in a service. I mean, really. Omnipresence, schmomnipresence. If God cares about that shit, I don't want to go to that heaven. It wouldn't be heaven! And you all saw my rant on Christmas presents and Easter eggs...you can look in my archives if you missed it (sometime around/before Christmas 2004). I know this attitude is going to be a point of dispute when I have children. My parents will understand that we are not baptizing them as infants, but when I tell my family not to give my children Christmas presents (I would rather do just because presents than because-it's-that-time-of-year-so-I-have-to presents) - that will be a problem. They won't understand. Oh well.

That's all, for now. Please comment if you have an opinion.
Peace.

Comments

[bigonbnl.livejournal.com]

I gotta say that any cermonial kind of thing in a church always creeps me out a little. I'm like you, so much emphasis is put on the ceremony itself, I think sometimes the meaning of it gets lost. Our church does feet washing. While it is a very meaningful thing to me, I stopped going when I had kids. For one, there's no nursery then, and for another, if you don't have a prayer covering on when you come in the door, there is a barage of women waiting with a basketful. They plop one on your head before you get 3 steps in the door. Somehow I think whether or not I have a sin sifter on should not dictate what I take from the love feast.

I could go on for days too. I'm new to all this Christian stuff and I go to one of THE most conservative churches around here as far as the Brethren doctrine goes. There is so much I don't understand and am trying to learn...

We just recently started going to Sunday School and I enjoy it immensely. Mainly because I have this preconception that most people that go there agree with 98% of everything that goes on and such.. when in fact, many of them question the same things I do. I'm rambling...

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

I do think Love Feast is a great tradition, but I totally agree about the prayer covering. To me, stuff like that is just a way for you to tell other people how righteous you are - all those outward signs - when really you should be doing it for God. And God knows your heart without looking at your outfit, at least I would think.

[bigonbnl.livejournal.com]

Yes, and it's also a thing to make people like me feel weird.. ;)

a note on prayer coverings...

[archwindchaser.livejournal.com]

The funny thing about the origins of women covering their hair all the time is that it does not really have to do with their sin. In genesis there is a passage about the "Sons of God" (Angels in this case) procreating(or raping according to some sources) women with the result being the nephelim. The women's hair was too tempting for the Angels so the decision was mage that women should cover their hair...

Weird huh???

Now why the CoB and Mennonites think they do prayer coverings may be entirely different but our reasons for "choosing" to do something may be entirely different than we think...

There are probably other churches around that might be a better fit...unless you feel you are somehow helping some of the other members towards better spiritual health then it may be better for you to find a more spiritually healthy environment for yourself and your children...

Re: a note on prayer coverings...

[bigonbnl.livejournal.com]

We *just* had a very lenghty discussion in Sunday School about this very subject. Unfortunately, I had an uncooperative child and couldn't be there for most of it. I can't remember if they ever drew a conclusion that they should be worn or not. We do have some older members who wear them every Sunday, but I would say 99% of the women at Greenmount do not. Certainly at this point, not having a place for the kids to go until they're old enough to entertain themselves for awhile is more an issue of us not going than the prayer covering for love feast. I think my stipulation with it was the very first time I went, they made kind of a big deal about how I came in without one. I mean, I hadn't ever really gone to church before, it's not like I'm going to have one lying around. In my mind, I was taking a HUGE step just being there and this was a big negative strike on my trying to take part. It all stems back to when I was about 8 and my aunt took me to a Pentacostal Church for an evening service. I was terrified out of my mind. This was complete with dancing, loud chants, people entranced and talking in tongues and even passing out. It freaked me out so bad that I still have trouble with ceremonial things at church. I've come a long way, and I'll go back to love feast. I love the quiet, I love the acapella songs, I love what it means and how it makes me feel. I rambled again. LOL

Speaking in tongues

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

People who speak in tongues in church are great big phonies who don't understand the Bible.

In Acts, where this miracle occurs, it is a miracle of hearing. All the people gathered together spoke their own different languages, and everyone heard in their own language. No one was speaking all hibbidy jibbazzy hag or anything. Everyone spoke just as they always would, and the miracle was that they understood each other, not that they were moved to speak in crazy noises that weren't understood.

When people go into fits and speak in tongues in their church, maybe it is because they truly believe and are moved by their own misinterpretation of this passage, but I see it as them being big fat phony fakers, trying to convince the world that they're so holy because they can scream incomprehensibly in a church.

Re: Speaking in tongues

[bigonbnl.livejournal.com]

Oh I agree, wholeheartedly. Just imagine being exposed to this at 8 when you're not aware of much of anything biblical. I was left in the back of the church by myself while all this went on and I was terrified. They had an outdoor jon, and I faked having to pee about 100 times just to get out of there. This was somewhere in Green County - they lived in Earlysville at the time, so somewhere that area - Dyke maybe? I hate to sound like a weannie, but it was truly traumatic for me. I'm learning that things in the Brethren church aren't scary LOL.

Re: Speaking in tongues

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

Oh hey, I totally understand. Those people still scare me, even when I'm not in a church with them. My parents' house is right outside Earlysville...most of my closest friends grew up there...luckily none of them were Pentacostal. Blech.

Re: Speaking in tongues

[flamingophoenix.livejournal.com]

But one was Catholic. We don't do tongues, though I love the Pentecost reading. Being the language dork that I am.

There's a Pentecostal church in the industrial park where my doctor's office used to be. At least, I think that's the denom. They're having a revival soon (unless it's already happened.)

[harri-cady.livejournal.com]

What is the connection between stained glass and churches? I do think it was a showing-off sort of thing, when I think of the famous cathedrals in France, for example. Was it a "Our church is doing so well we can afford this" or more of a "We have to honor God in such a spectacular way, as this is His house" sort of thing though, I wonder...?

[flamingophoenix.livejournal.com]

I think you're very right with your theory, unfortunately. Back in the day (when all the cathedrals were being built), I think it really was a "our church has more money, therefore we are more pious/good/etc than you" thing. Silly medieval Church.

That said, I think that the soaring ceilings and beautiful stained glass of cathedrals are good, because art in any form is to be praised. Beauty is certainly not the only thing that should be valued, but it is nice when it occurs. I'm having trouble forming these thoughts in my head, so I'll stop now.

Yay! I can derail this into a tangent!

[artsygeek.livejournal.com]

Well, of course art in any form should be praised. The question then comes to whether or not interpreting art is truly appreciating it; some have said that interpreting art is akin to masturbation, while Susan Sontag (one of my goddesses) said that "In place of a hermeneutics we need an erotics of art".

Yet another tangent

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

I wonder if Susan Sontag is related to Alan Sontag, the professional bridge player from DC. Sontag's not a very common name, is it?

Re: Yet another tangent

[artsygeek.livejournal.com]

Hrmmm....Well, Sontag was her stepdad's name that her mom pressured her into taking.

Re: Yet another tangent

[flamingophoenix.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I think it *might* mean "Sunday" in German, though I could be COMPLETELY WRONG. Not sure.

[harri-cady.livejournal.com]

And it definitely doesn't hurt that it's sort of inspiring to look at. Love of art, or love of God, who knows :)

[flamingophoenix.livejournal.com]

Yeah...I've kind of got the same feeling about baptism, although for a different reason. I am (understandably) ADAMANTLY opposed to any rituals that occur "because you've reached a certain age" or what have you. Whether or not the parents are demanding it of the child, there is still a great deal of environmental pressure for the child to undergo the ritual, and I think that's wrong. Religious rituals should be undertaken because the participant wants it, with all their heart and soul and mind. Not because they are a junior in high school and that's when you get Confirmed.

(Haha, no bitterness here, eh?)

If my kids want to go to a religious service, I will drive them to it; if they want to do rituals at home, I will help them. I will not, however, take them to something they don't want to go to or allow them to be forced into doing something just because "it's what is done." Besides, getting my child baptized would be somewhat hypocritical, as I don't intend to "raise my children Catholic." I definitely want them to know about their heritage, and stuff...but I don't want them to be forced into doing anything they don't want to do. As I was. And I have to be very careful about the environmental pressure--my parents told me it was okay with them if I didn't get confirmed (although their statement had the implication of "you can just get confirmed senior year instead"). The reason I went through with the ceremony is because I knew it would kill my grandmother (quite possibly literally--she's kind of old and crazy) if I didn't. Ugh. Bad situation all around. BUT, it is done. And I have learned a lot from the whole thing.

Sorry for the long angsty comment. ;-)

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

At least you were a junior when you were pressured into it. I was 13. I was told I either had to be confirmed or I'd no longer be invited to youth group events. (Do this stupid ritual you're not ready for yet or we won't let you help us serve the community)

I chose to leave, of course. I even told the youth minister that I didn't believe in God (at that time I didn't) and she encouraged me to get confirmed anyway. What, do they have quotas?

Anyway. I know what you mean.

[artsygeek.livejournal.com]

Well, I agree with that feeling about baptism; I should note that Simone Weil refused to be baptized because she wanted to be in solidarity with those who had never heard the Gospel.

Well, I plan on raising my kids as good little Quaker kids, and I'll use the same zeal my parents did to make me a mainline evangelical, only I won't push it after they reach age 12, then it's up to them. But for the first 12 years they need a solid education to equip them to explore their faith.

[artsygeek.livejournal.com]

People shouldn't go to church to sing hymns or recite prayers (this is why I despise liturgy). They should be inspired on their own, without having to follow a program to know when to pray, sing, or partake in a sacrament (communion, baptism, etc...), and when it's no longer Sunday, they should be just as Christian as they were in church.

That's why I'm a Quaker.