(no subject)

[jianantonic]

Of course it would happen that just after my conversation with flamingophoenix about how much healthier I am since my lifestyle change that I'd come down with my second ghastly cold in as many weeks. Yesterday at work, everyone on my floor was complaining of dizziness and tiredness and headaches, so we called maintenance to see if there was any chance of a carbon monoxide leak in our building. They said no, we have electric heat, that's not possible, get back to work. So we did. And today, we're all worse. So much worse that my boss didn't come in at all, half the people on the first floor (we're on the third) called out sick, and I left after being there for just two hours. I came home and napped with my husband, and I'm feeling a little better, but this is still like the worst I've felt in a long time. I seriously think it has something to do with our building, and not just that we're in close quarters so of course we're catching what everyone else has. We were all fine when we went into work yesterday, and it hit us all right around lunchtime. I'm convinced it's that damn building and this is one more thing on a long list of reasons why I want our offices moved to the recently-vacated-by-the-waterpark-personnel ag center. But they won't move us until our building collapses, so I'll just have to keep grumbling about it. At least I got to start my vacation a little earlier, albeit not at all the way I had hoped.

A thought occurred to me yesterday about marriage. I would like you, particularly those of you with Catholic backgrounds, to respond. I was thinking about how if you're Catholic and you divorce, you can't be remarried in a Catholic Church (unless you can find that one priest who's willing among the zillions who aren't) and you're a sinner and any subsequent marriages don't count and all that. But if you are widowed and you remarry, that's not a problem, right? And I thought that this was kind of an issue. I mean, not just with Catholics, but the fact that people can so often remarry after the loss of a spouse - I'm married to Jeremy and that's that. He's my husband and as far as I'm concerned (unless we divorce, which I don't expect), and we made certain our vows said "forever," instead of "'til death...." Okay, I don't have a problem with people who divorce or people who remarry after being widowed, but it's not for me. What good is going to heaven if I can't be there with my soul mate? Anyway, this is not meant to be a discussion of soul mates and whether or not they exist, but a discussion of church policy and why it is what it is. Jer's take on it is that marriage is a contract until death, as evidenced by the common vows, "'til death do us part." But I think if it's a sacrament, that would mean that it has a significance more holy than an earthly thing. All the other sacraments signify some kind of bond to God. Baptism, confirmation, ordination, extreme unction, eucharist, and confession all have to do with strengthening your relationship with God and boosting your chances of acceptance into heaven, though I know that's a crude way to put it. So in what way does marriage accomplish this? And for what reason should that sacrament only exist on earth and not in the afterlife? If you remarry and both your marriages are accepted by the church, then are you a bigamist in the afterlife? I don't get it. Maybe I'm wrong about remarriage and it's not accepted in the Catholic Church. I think I'm going to email one of my professors about this. But I still want your input.

Peace.

Comments

[flamingophoenix.livejournal.com]

As far as I have understood it, the idea with Catholic remarriage after death of a spouse is that in the afterlife, nothing from the world matters any more. You're just all so happy to be with God that your relationships with non-God things lose significance.

I could be entirely wrong, and honestly, this view of it makes me sad. But I think that's the idea.

Another way to look at it would be that you lose higher brain function when you're dead--you're pure soul/spirit, not physical or intellectual or emotional. (Similarly uncomforting possibility.)

And as frustrating as Catholic marriage doctrine is, the bit about "if you can even find a priest that would marry you" really bugs me. And I don't know why. I guess it's the way I was raised to look at religion--if you're going to bother to follow it, you may as well follow it in its entirety.

I'm aware that this is a flawed premise, which is why I don't think I've abandoned all organized religion forever. I've just abandoned it until I can get out of that thought process.


Mmmm, tangents.

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

As far as I have understood it, the idea with Catholic remarriage after death of a spouse is that in the afterlife, nothing from the world matters any more. You're just all so happy to be with God that your relationships with non-God things lose significance.

I am aware that this is the way many view the afterlife. As much as I hate that idea, I will run with it for the sake of discussion. Why, if the marriage doesn't last beyond earthly existence, is it a sacrament?

And for the sake of being a brat, I'm going to run with Cady's statement that it's a contract between, you, spouse, and God - wouldn't God be able to keep it from declining, then? Of course I don't buy that for my own reasons, but it's a question that may have significance in the debate.

Oh okay and to take your statement "nothing from the world matters anymore," then why have sacraments at all?

Sorry I'm all over the place - it's this damn cold. Can't think straight with all this phlegm in my brainal region. Cerebral, I mean.

[flamingophoenix.livejournal.com]

My mom said there's a bible verse along the lines of "in God's kingdom, there's no Gentile or Jew, no servant or free, no woman or man--all are one in God." So that sort of points to that view of the afterlife.

(Not what I personally believe.)

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

Sounds a little Eastern to me. I don't doubt that it's in there, but do you know the specific verse?

That begs the question of the individuality of the soul - be it in heaven, earth, purgatory, hell, or otherwise. I have my own theories about soul status that I'd love to discuss with you in the future, but as I am looking for the opinions of others here, I'll save them for later.

[flamingophoenix.livejournal.com]

The line I'm thinking of comes from the hymn "One Bread, One Body."

Galatians 3:28
"There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus."

Doesn't appear to be talking about heaven, just about life in general, so I think I misapplied it above.

http://paradox.rso.wisc.edu/fall99/article/art4.htm
This appears interesting. (What happened when I googled those lyrics.)

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

And as frustrating as Catholic marriage doctrine is, the bit about "if you can even find a priest that would marry you" really bugs me. And I don't know why. I guess it's the way I was raised to look at religion--if you're going to bother to follow it, you may as well follow it in its entirety.

I'm not sure if you're taking issue here with what I said or the fact that it's true, but I have an anecdote either way. My friend Gina is Catholic and has been married 4 times. She is currently married to a Catholic man who is on his first marriage - they're perfect for each other and I'm confident they will be together forever (8 years so far). They were married in a Catholic ceremony for the sake of his family. They know she's been married one time before (she has a son), but that marriage was annulled so it's okay. They don't know about the other two exes. The priest did, and while he was willing to perform their ceremony, he won't give either of them communion now, and they're not supposed to take communion anywhere. They moved here from CT, and Gina doesn't go to a Catholic church anymore because she's pissed that they deny her husband communion simply because he married her. He still attends mass, and the only reason he doesn't take communion here is that he's an honest man, but I see no reason why he couldn't. I've taken eucharist at a Catholic church before (when I was little and didn't know better), and no one stopped me for a background check. Anyway I guess this story doesn't have much of a point, or if it did, the phlegm made me forget...so I'm done here.

[harri-cady.livejournal.com]

Your marriage is between three people though: you, your spouse, and God. That's my understanding of the Catholic sacriment, anyway. Being married and fulfilling that duty to your spouse gets you closer to God because He made women as partners for men, and the union in marriage should help you focus on being a better Catholic by being a better spouse, as God wants.

...but I don't know how it all works in heaven. I think that's a great question.

One of my friends here at work just remarried after a divorce. She's been seeking an annullment (he was verbally abusive), but it's not been easy. They had a child, and he doesn't want the annullment (he's trying to be difficult, according to her anyway - I've never met him). She remarried this summer and was not able to do so in the church that she, her new husband, and her daughter attend every Sunday. I feel like that's wrong. I see the point of an annullment/remarriage in certain circumstances.

[harri-cady.livejournal.com]

P.S. I adore that icon, and you for using it! It always makes me smile :)

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

Thank you:) It's the one religious statement of which I'm willing to say I am 100% certain.

P.S. Do you have a Catholic background? What is your religious history, if you don't mind my asking?

Me: raised Episcopal, decided early on that I'd stop going as soon as my parents stopped making me, did the agnostic thing all through high school and college, started attending Church of the Brethren services sporadically with Jer and his family, got my degree in Philosophy and Religion, and now am a regular Unitarian Universalist who considers herself Christian UU. Makes your head spin, doesn't it? Oh, and Jer is a licensed Brethren minister, but will not be renewing his license next year. I don't know how much of that you knew.

This cold makes me chatty!

[flamingophoenix.livejournal.com]

Verbal abuse is BAD, but I can see the guy's point--annulments basically say "This marriage never existed," and I don't blame him for not wanting to deny that very important part of his past.

Shoulda thought of that before he abused his wife, though.

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

Being married and fulfilling that duty to your spouse gets you closer to God because He made women as partners for men, and the union in marriage should help you focus on being a better Catholic by being a better spouse, as God wants.

I addressed this issue in my note to my professor, but not in the entry. The thing about the sacraments is that there's no way for you to fulfill all of them, because if you're married, you can't be ordained, and vice versa. So at best, you get 6/7. Is someone a lesser Catholic if they're unmarried (and not also a priest?) I don't think so. No sense forcing something if you haven't found the right partner (or you have but that partner is the same sex, or a divorcee, or, heaven forbid, not Catholic). So if it doesn't help you into heaven any more than if you were unmarried (a nun, for instance), and the marriage is of no consequence in the afterlife (see Emily's comment above), then really what it boils down to is a contract for your sex. Am I making sense? I feel like I have a really coherent idea in my mind but when I try to express it, all the phlegm gets in the way. Basically what I'm trying to say is that if it carries the weight of the other sacraments, remarriages should be shunned just as much as divorce, or it just plain shouldn't be a sacrament.

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

Oh, I should also mention that I think it's a total load of poo that divorce is treated like it is (especially when premarital cohabitation and sex are prohibited, since a lot of your relationship is going to depend on how you live together and your sex life). I'm not encouraging the Catholic church to shun remarryers, I'm just trying to expose the inconsistencies because I blame the church (not just the Catholic one) for a lot of hate based on this sacrament that they can't even seem to get straight without bringing things like gay marriage into the mix.

It's unfortunate that divorce rates are as high as they are, and people should treat marriage a lot more seriously than as something they can just walk away from if it gets rough - but there are so many legitimate cases of divorce that it absolutely should remain an option. No one should be shunned for leaving an abusive marriage.

That's kind of how I feel about abortion, too. I hate, hate, hate that it happens, I wish it didn't, but would rather have it legal and regulated than illegal and performed with coat hangers. The problem is with the way people approach the situation prior to the conflict (divorce, abortion). If people treat sex and marriage as the serious commitments that they are, and are well-informed (ahem, Christian Coalition, listen up), then the instances of divorce, abortion and so on would be so much less frequent.

*dismounts stump*

[flamingophoenix.livejournal.com]

Also, have you considered the possibility of something like mold at your workplace? I know it can cause a lot of headaches, allergic reactions, that sort of thing...dunno about a full-out cold, but it's worth looking into. Mold is sneaky.

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

I don't think it was mold because it all hit us like a freight train at once. Also, we're on the third floor and the one good thing I will say for my building is it is well-ventilated. I think my cold had begun before going into the office, but it was suddenly exponentially worse after being there. Same story today, which is why I left. The woman in the office next to mine said that she could notice a visible decline in the two hours I was there. Two of my other coworkers who had felt violently ill while at work yesterday said they were fine when they got home.

Catholicism

[(Anonymous)]

Hi, I'm a Catholic. Generally, yes if you get a divorce, you cannot remarry. If you remarry you are considered to be committing adultery. Even if it is your first marriage but you are marrying a person who has been divorced, it is considered adultery (for both parties). There is one way around this and that is to have the Catholic Church grant an "annulment" (for one person, the other, or both in case of both remarrying) which basically states that the first marriage "didn't count" generally because both or one of the parties were not committed to the relationship from the beginning (or for other reasons, such as abuse, etc). The "investigation" for annulment can take as long as a year though.

Marriage is indeed a sacrament and it is considered a union between the couple and God. It is believed that marriage makes the faith stronger and that two married parents, who are committed to God and the faith, will make the best parents....and it is the duty of the married couple to have children to bring into the faith if they are able to.

It's not "as bad" as it sounds. :-) Hope this helped.

Re: Catholicism

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

You didn't tell me anything I didn't know already. A) Who are you?
B) The question is about remarriage after death of a spouse and the termination of the sacrament with death. Do you have any thoughts on that issue?

Re: Catholicism

[(Anonymous)]

A sacrament cannot be "terminated." Once it's been accepted, it's been accepted. Catholics can remarry after the death of a spouse. It's "holier" not to, but is accepted today. As far as the
after-life, my opinion is that is between the person and God and no one else (which is actually how I see most issues).

Many issues involving the church also depends on the priest. Some priests are more "liberal" than others. Sometimes it is a matter of finding a priest who you connect with....same as most anything else in life. If someone wants to get remarried or wants to do something "against" the general "Catholic consensus," then I would suggest getting to know a few priests and finding one that you can talk to and who will listen to circumstances and such.....they are all different and all have different opinions....some things are important to some that are no as important to others.

Re: Catholicism

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

I'm going to venture a guess that I do not in fact know you. Or at least that you do not know me, because I think you are grossly underestimating my "Catholic" background. The question is for the sake of debate, not remedial R.E.

Re: Catholicism

[flamingophoenix.livejournal.com]

Perhaps "terminate" is not the correct word to use, but certainly something happens with death that ends the contractual nature of a marriage.

Or, let me put it another way.

If the sacrament of marriage were not terminated annulled temporarily suspended (?), then it would be adultery for a widow to remarry. However, this is entirely acceptable in the Church. What happens, then, if the marriage is not ended by death?

I understand your reasoning when you say "A sacrament cannot be terminated." This is true, in the abstract; however, marriage is a special case, since it may be annulled or the spouse may die. Marriage is the only sacrament that involves another human being, and is thus in a different category than the other six. You can't annul a baptism, a eucharist, a confession, a confirmation, or a last rite. I'm not sure about holy orders, because I know (think?) that priests sometimes leave their calling with no ill will. I have a feeling it's something akin to annulment, but it's extremely rare--I've never actually heard of one happening.



One more point--It is extremely rude to comment and not identify yourself. It is even more rude to do so when you have been asked to identify yourself. We're not looking for your SSN and blood type, just a name we can address you by.