On spanking (children, you freaks)

[jianantonic]

So the topic of spanking has come up in a few different discussions I've had recently, and I have some things to say about it.  First of all, I'm never going to have kids, so maybe my opinion doesn't matter at all, but I still have one.

All the best parents I know do not spank, and never have.  In fact, present me with any four-year-old and I can probably tell you if that kid has been spanked.  Kids develop a pretty warped view of what's appropriate when they're spanked.  (I had an imaginary friend who existed solely for the purpose of being spanked when I got mad.)  Does spanking have lasting psychological impact?  That's debatable.  I think it might make kids less trusting in their parents, and who knows what effects that might have, but as a person who was spanked frequently as a child, I will say that I don't feel damaged by it now, and I have a good relationship with my parents.  But I still think it was shitty of them to spank me, and I don't think it's ever right for anyone to do it.

I could compare it to my feelings on the death penalty -- it's kinda fucked up to hit a kid (something you presumably would punish them for doing to someone else) to show them that misbehaving is wrong.   The saying goes "why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?"  It's the same thing, but smaller scale, in my opinion.  

And at what age does a child grow out of spankings?  Kids misbehave at all ages, and even into adulthood, and I can tell you now that I was a really well behaved kid.  It was only as a teenager that I got kind of wild.  But I never got spanked then.  Not even really punished, come to think of it.  So why is it okay to hit a small, defenseless kid?  If it's so acceptable, why don't we keep doing it?  Why don't we spank everyone who crosses us?  Because it's actually a very wrong thing to do.

A woman was telling me a story last week about her mother-in-law.  Her MIL had told her that her son had lied, so as punishment for lying, this woman spanked her son.  But then the MIL admitted that she exaggerated the facts and the kid hadn't really lied so much as just been obnoxious, as kids are wont to do.  So this lady then says "Oh, I wanted to hit her!"  Um, okay -- so you hit the kid, because the kid lied, but then when you find out that it was really your MIL who lied, you only wanted to hit her, but didn't.  They are both people.  The only difference is that the adult in this situation is the one who actually has a solid foundation of right and wrong, and thus probably deserves harsher punishment for being intentionally immoral.  And yet, nothing...

Please don't tell me that spanking is not the same as hitting.  I remember being spanked, and I remember thinking how I could not possibly feel more pain.  Actually hitting a toddler could be fatal, but spanking hurts a three-year-old as much as it hurts for an adult to get punched.  It's intense pain, and it's being inflicted by the people those wee ones are supposed to count on for protection. 

I think that many parents would say "spanking is a last resort," but then if you examine when they use it, it's when they lose their own tempers, get impatient and fed up with their kids, and don't feel like putting the energy into an actual discussion of right and wrong.  If you can raise your child to trust you, know that you love them all the time, and are there for them in every way, your child will value your approval and fear your disapproval so much that you will be able to establish good habits and eliminate bad ones without inflicting physical pain.  If you can't do this, why do you want kids?  

Interestingly, I've had this discussion with my mother.  My dad never actually spanked me, though he did threaten it plenty.  My mother, on the other hand, must have spanked me probably 100 times before I started kindergarten.  Some of my most vivid memories of my early relationships with my brothers are of them protecting me from spankings.  I wasn't that awful a kid, my mother was just impatient.  She was in her 40s, overworked, and didn't have the energy for a toddler.  Anyway, the interesting thing is that my mother does not remember spanking me, ever.  I don't think my mom would lie to me, but every time I bring it up, she swears adamantly that she has NEVER lain a hand on me.  I find this disturbing, because she definitely spanked me a lot.  And I really believe she believes she never did it.

Anyway, on a friend's LJ, we're discussing "where spanking is necessary," as in situations where a child puts himself in danger (like reaching for a hot stove or running into the street) but is too young to understand a firm talking to.  Apparently, some behaviorists suggest that spanking is the only way to teach a kid to stay out of this kind of trouble.  My thought, though, is why are you letting your kid get into this kind of trouble?  Are you not watching him?  Do you not own a playpen?  Is it common to let your 1-year-old play with fire?  To me, these are copouts.  Just like spanking.  It's what a parent does when they're too lazy to be a parent.

Knowing that I don't have the patience it takes to never be tempted to spank a kid that JUST WON'T SHUT UP, I know I'm never going to have any of them.  

/rant  (until someone disagrees with me in the comments)

Peace.

Comments

[flamingophoenix.livejournal.com]

I think that spanking a child to teach them "lying is wrong" (especially so long after the fact of the misbehavior!) is a fundamentally different thing from spanking a child to teach them "don't touch the stove."

Do you think these things are fundamentally different?

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

Yes. But I don't think hitting your kid for any reason is acceptable. Ever. EVER.

If your kid touches the stove, it's because you've failed as a parent (if only in an instant). Don't punish your kid for that. Just don't fucking let it happen again.

And if your kid succeeds in touching the stove, he'll get his punishment anyway.

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

I don't believe in differentiating these things. Saying "it's okay to spank your kids in SOME circumstances" just leaves it open for parents to broaden those circumstances, or bend their own interpretations to make it okay (ie the South Park hunter guys who shoot endangered animals after yelling "It's coming right for us!").

Hitting a kid is hitting a kid, and I don't think it's ever okay.

[kixeldorado.livejournal.com]

I only remember being spanked once. It really was a last resort situation, because we were out for a walk outside and I kept running off (in the woods where snakes and bad critters abounded), so when my mom finally got hold of me, I got spanked because I knew I wasn't supposed to be running off and did anyway.

And considering what kind of hellion I was at other times (seriously, my mom thought I was possessed at one point from what I remember), I'm surprised I didn't get more. But I generally behaved out in public, so she never really had to discipline me there. Usually the threat of having something taken away scared me into submission.

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

But see, I don't think this is a last resort, either. There's picking you up and carrying you, tying a leash around you, and taking you back to the car.

Again, I think the only reason anything would ever be a last resort would be in the event of a parenting oversight, like failure to put child in playpen, strap into stroller or backpack thingy (I have no idea what they're called), or just failure to communicate right and wrong with a child who is old enough to know better. No one's perfect and we all have lapses, but I just don't see where hitting a kid for your own shortcomings does any good, and I'll just never buy into that whole last resort thing, either.

[flamingophoenix.livejournal.com]

Snügli, I think.

[goob712.livejournal.com]

In my mind, there are two kinds of "spankings". There is "How my Mom hit me" and "How my dad hit me". My Mom was too young when I was born and DEFINITELY not ready for children, and had an anger problem, and other issues I won't go into. Her "spankings" (which included other kinds of physical harm) were often her own frustrations.

My Dad's "spankings" were another story. He was of the "don't touch the stove spanking" school. In fact his spankings were generally a light tap meant to embarrass more than to hurt. He'd make a big deal when we misbehaved of how he was going to "bop" us (a bop was a smack on the butt, never anything else) and usually we'd shape up before it came to an actual bop.

Over the years, I learned to turn into my mom's hand so that she would give me a bloody nose "by accident" and then she'd feel bad and not hit me any more.

Meanwhile, with my dad, I would ask for a bop just so I'd get out of other punishments easily. At that point, bopping became obsolete and my dad thought of other punishments.

I think that it depends on the parent and how they deal with things. Obviously my mom had issues, and in her case spanking was wrong. But she was abused as a child and so that's all she knew.

Then my Dad was overly rational. I shouldn't use him as a perfect example because he's as flawed as anyone. I know his parents were of the "rational" spanking type. So it was all logic and reason. I will say that my dad's lessons stuck better, whether they involved actual physical contact or not.

I am VERY aware though that I am NOT allowed to ever hit my own children if I have any. I have way too much of my mother in me, and though I love my mother I know her faults all too well. I worry that if I had a child, I might forget and become my mother all over again.

My sister has a daughter and she also recognizes the failings of our parents. I am thankful for that. I don't think I could be so patient.

It's funny, I started with the idea to argue with you, but in the end I agree.

Ick. Parenting is a fucked up deal. Let's not do it, ok?

[robinhoodvandal.livejournal.com]

my mom and I recently had a long tearful discussion once where she realized that she spanked out of anger and not as a useful discipline technique. She said if she had it to do over she would never have spanked my sister or me. Long before this I decided that if I ever had kids I would never spank them because I couldn't trust myself to know my motivations and not hit too hard. I feel that, for overworked and frustrated parents, spanking just leaves the door open for crossing a very very thin line into something that's not about the kid and not ok.

[wuvmuphin.livejournal.com]

Well I guess I can give the input of someone never spanked. I was an abnormally good child. And enough of a rules follower that my mom always talks about the one time my dad told me to go to my room for something and I sat there quietly all day and he forgot about it so much later in the day they found me sitting there all sad. My brothers got spanked, but I never had a hand laid on me. Maybe it was because I was good...or a girl? Or just raised a certain way? But I think if they had, our relationship might be a lot different. Even as a kid I would have taken huge offense to a spanking. Heh, yet I learned plenty of sibling violence as I grew up.

[stillbigonbnl.livejournal.com]

As an actual parent, and a child who was spanked... The only think I'm going to call you out on is just preventing them from touching the stove, or keeping them from running into the street. Even the most diligent of parents cannot prevent these things from happening. I have an 8 year old who still doesn't get the concept of a cookie sheet being hot when it comes from the oven. I'm to the point with him that "some lessons, you just have to learn on your own." Of course, I don't want him to get burned, but for heaven's sake, this is not a hard concept for a bright boy! I gave Clayton some light "taps" at around 3 years old when he was an absolute horror to deal with. He didn't cry and it didn't work. Haven't done it since. What I'm saying is that I think it's ridiculous to say that I'm an inattentive parent because I can't keep my child from randomly running off from me or touching the stove. You clearly do not understand how quick and sneaky toddlers can be. Granted, spanking for that is also ridiculous. I have figured out my children's currency - TV. Take that away and the world is ending. I also stand them in a corner. It's mildly humiliating and removes them from the situation. I think my views on spanking turned completely from "My parents beat me and I turned out OK to - wow, this just doesn't seem right..." when I was battling with Julie (and some depression) over potty training. She took her potty chair and threw it UP the stairs. I started toward her and realized that if I did anything at that point, it was going to be completely out of my anger and frustration. She was only 2 and didn't deserve that. I did what the commercials say - I went to another room, counted to 10 or 1,000 in this case.. cried for awhile and came back to deal with the situation when I was more level headed. No one is perfect and let me tell you - this parenting shit is hard. Every single day is hard. It's wonderful, but it is the hardest thing I have ever and most likely will ever do. You know that every word you say, every action affects them - maybe for the rest of their lives. It's only when you start to see your own bad behavior in them that you realize that you're a toad and need to change. It's constant and if you can't see your own faults, your children are going to be fucked up.

Ask me again when I have teenagers...

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

Here's the thing -- I understand that kids are tricky and that simply having toddlers makes a parent too tired to be ever vigilant all the time. Things happen. But I don't think it's the kid's fault when s/he does something when s/he just doesn't know any better. (Behaviorists in favor of spanking still only advocate it until about age 3.) If a kid can't learn through a "no," or a good explanation, what do they learn through a spanking? Not "this is bad so I shouldn't do it," but maybe "If I do this, my parents are going to hurt me." I think that most household disasters are preventable. If you're playing outside, stay in a fenced in area, or the back yard, away from the street. Inside, keep little ones in a playpen while you're at the stove, stuff like that. It won't prevent everything, but when something does happen, I think it's a slipup on the parent's part, not the kid's, and rather than spanking the kid, the parent should be the one who learns something.

No parent is perfect and accidents will of course happen. In most cases, kids will learn their own lessons when they get too close to the stove. If it's a near miss, though, I just think a more effective and wholesome solution is anything other than hitting the kid.

I just remembered how I learned about the stove. I had a stuffed rabbit called Boo Boo Bunny. His hands were bandaged up, and my parents told me it was because he touched the stove and hurt himself, and he was missing an ear, allegedly because he put his finger in an electrical socket.

Shorter version

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

Sorry, it's barely six am here, my thoughts aren't all together yet.

Accidents happen, no parents are perfect, kids will get into things they shouldn't get into, and probably pretty frequently when they're 2 or 3. But kudos to the parent who can get through this time without ever laying a hand on their kids.

That's what I'm getting at. That I disagree with the whole spanking is necessary when... argument. And it seems you found a way to raise kids, discipline them appropriately, and not blame them for things that aren't their fault, without hitting them. So it can be done.

[crazy--sunshine.livejournal.com]

I support your decision never to have children. Clearly it is the right choice for you.

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

I sincerely hope that you don't intend for this to sound as cruel as it does.

[flamingophoenix.livejournal.com]

I think he was just being blunt.

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

I don't even know who he is -- even if it is "just blunt," it sounds really harsh and very trollish.

[flamingophoenix.livejournal.com]

He's a buddy of mine. (A lot of my friends seem to have started reading your journal. Cool, I guess.)

But--and I'm going out on a limb here--I think what happened is he saw your perfectionism/artificially high expectations when it comes to children and concluded that you would be extremely frustrated by the reality that is a small, pretty much uncontrollable child. The fact that you would be so frustrated is not an issue, however, since you don't plan to have kids.

[jianantonic.livejournal.com]

Fine. It was still mean.